Momtalk Maryland
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Momtalk Maryland
Face the Flames: Breaking Generational Patterns in Your Relationships
What happens when a singer-songwriter becomes a relationship therapist? In this illuminating conversation, Katherine Petzold shares her fascinating journey from performing worldwide to helping couples transform their relationships through Relational Life Therapy (RLT).
Katherine reveals why conventional communication advice fails most couples – it's not that we don't know how to communicate, but that we lose this ability when emotionally triggered. Through vivid examples (including a memorable story about losing it in a Target parking lot), she explains RLT's three-part system: the wounded child who feels hurt, the adaptive child who protects through problematic behaviors, and the wise adult who can choose healthier responses.
The most powerful revelation? You are part of the problem in your relationship difficulties – and that's actually good news. As Katherine explains, "Only you can change you, and that's worth it regardless of whether your partner changes." This accountability is the doorway to genuine connection.
Whether you're in a decades-long marriage, just starting to date, or working through a breakup, the upcoming RLT workshop (September 20-21 in Annapolis) offers transformative tools for creating healthier patterns. Surprisingly, it's often the reluctant participants – those "dragged" to the workshop – who become its biggest advocates afterward.
Beyond romantic relationships, these skills ripple outward to improve all your connections. As Terry Real says, "Family dysfunction rolls from generation to generation like a fire in the woods until somebody turns and faces the flames." Will you be the one to face those flames?
Register for the workshop by August 31 for early pricing and join Katherine and Risa Ganel for a weekend that participants consistently describe as life-changing. Your future self – and everyone who loves you – will thank you.
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Hey friends and welcome to MomTalk, Maryland. I'm your host, Claire Duarte, founder of the Columbia Mom, and this is your spot for real conversations, local love and a whole lot of community. Whether you're folding laundry, running errands or hiding in your car for some peace and quiet, let's dive in, Ready to get started.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, as ready as I'll ever be, I know, that's what I have to tell myself every single day yes, as ready as I'll ever be, I know that's what I have to tell myself every single day. Well, catherine, I'm so excited to have you on today. Obviously, we recently had Risa Ganel on and we got to talk about everything relating to the upcoming workshop. Diving into what exactly is RLT, how that's different from couples, as we may say. Um, even though, ironically, on the real, I titled it couples expert because, you know, I would still say that's kind of what she is, what you guys are, what you do. You know what I mean, even though we're going to talk about exactly why it's what you guys do isn't couples as we know it, for instance yeah, yeah yeah, still definitely relationship therapy, couples therapy, right that it's just a different um approach exactly it.
Speaker 1:Right, it's, it's different approach, different modality. Obviously, like I know, it too is kind of like a different, um, uh, I was gonna say what the word is escaping kind of just like a different not not a different type. And I remember I was trying to extract the information from my, uh, from my brain, but from my, from my master's class, when we were talking learning all the different types of therapy, but, um, anyways, my brain is failing me. But anyways, before we dive into all the things, uh, catherine, can you share with us a little bit more, first of all about yourself, about your background and how you got linked with RLT and RISA?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So my name is Catherine Petzold. I'm an LCSWC, which is social work by trade, and this is my second career. My first career was as a singer-songwriter and I performed and played shows all around the world and got interested in my path kind of to. This place is, got interested in anti-human trafficking and started to do some volunteering and then the fellowship at Polaris, which is an anti-human trafficking organization located in DC, and then decided that I could do the most thought that I could do the most help if I had, if I went back to school for social work which if you ever told my 20 year old self that I could do the most help if I had, if I went back to school for social work which if you ever told my 20-year-old self that I was going to go back to school, she would have been shocked.
Speaker 2:I worked as a therapist and then also did a lot of presentations around human trafficking and anti-human trafficking with an FBI agent. We did a couple of things together and worked on developing a program at a local outpatient mental health clinic and then went into private practice. And I say I got interested in couples because I'm married and this is interesting stuff and a lot of parts of myself were activated in intimate relationships. It's different than what's activated in friendships or in other relationships and so this kind of the couples, my interest in couples therapy, was born out of my interest in my own relationship and trying to understand myself and how I could show up in the way that I want to show up in my relationship and have the kind of relationship that I want.
Speaker 2:One of the things that especially attracted me to RLT was the direct nature of it. Yeah, I want to know what am I doing that's getting in my own way. I can handle that and in fact, rather than me kind of guessing or not seeing it or whatever, I want someone to trust me enough to tell me the truth about what it is that I'm doing. That's keeping me from getting what I really desire. And then, through getting certified in RLT, we went to the boot camp facilitator training together in Colorado and there we said, hey, let's do this together. And so that's when we embarked on doing this workshop. We've done several now and we're doing it twice a year and it's just been a lot of fun, really really satisfying. And then also just to like place myself, I'm a cisgender, heterosexual, 47 year old woman and have all the blind spots and privileges that that entails and yeah, so that's kind of my location in our culture.
Speaker 1:I love that Random question for you. I was just because I love to hear I mean, Risa had mentioned that you were a singer and yeah, so excited about that as your background too. But at what age were you, if you don't mind mind me asking when you went back to grad school?
Speaker 2:I'm just curious I don't mind you asking at all. Um, I was 36 and then I graduated at 38 with my newborn like I have a picture of her, like on the, the, my breast, friend pillow, and I'm studying from final final and it's like wow. I carried her across the stage with me at graduation that was fun.
Speaker 1:Wait, did you say sorry? You went back. Was it 26?
Speaker 2:36. I'm an old mom, I'm a geriatric mother, I love it all, and I had twins at 40. So yeah, I know I have aged about a thousand years.
Speaker 1:That's only because the kids will age you. Nothing else will Um, right, um, oh, my God. Well, I mean I was going to say, I mean I went, obviously, I went back. I mean I graduated too and, um, you know, I can share the experience of feeling like I graduated um from college and didn't know what I wanted to fully do with my life and had different jobs and things. And then Solo was like I want to, I want to become a therapist. And it's funny because I definitely didn't become a therapist, but it's not too late, claire.
Speaker 1:it's not too late, claire it's not too late, I know, um, wouldn't that just be funny if that was my next chapter? I'm like I'm gonna be an influencer, but also uh, uh, you never know. I still the problem is sorry, this is just complete tangent, and this is what we do on on these things is, um, I feel like all the licensure stuff has changed. You know it's always changing and I'm sure all the hours that I had gotten from interns I feel like I would have to redo all of that.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I have all the credits, but I probably have to redo the internship Do you know what I mean? Cause the hours have to be like recent and then have to get the additional credits. So those are my hurdles.
Speaker 2:Yes, but none are too big. Yeah, but none are too big. I have no agenda here, no agenda.
Speaker 1:That's the same time. I guess that's the problem. I can be just as easily influenced into many things, so maybe I shouldn't some time with you. That's probably why you're good at our RLT. Risa was good at kind of like. She heard the information and she took it in very nicely and she didn't nudge me. Maybe that's what makes you guys a good duo.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny because we we laugh about it because we both have like very different energies and so in the boot camp people have commented on like you guys are a nice pairing because you have such different energies. So it's kind of nice how you play off one another.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, it's so true. So, yeah, to recap out, the workshop, it's coming up, it's. We're almost about a month away now. Um, they are I know I'm not sure, like looking at your calendar, like that would be. Yes, I was, I was looking at the calendar. What?
Speaker 1:august 19th, what I know, september 20th and 21st, correct. Yes, in annapolis, maryland, and they're both. It's two days, saturday and sunday. Nine nine to five, right, 9, 30 to 5, 30, oh, sorry, 9, 30 to 5, 30 and um you can come um as an individual um or as a couple. The best way I think that reese explained to me too is that you know this is for all types of relationships. Um can be friend, parental. Like you know, it's all about rlt, it's all about how you relate to one another and even though I wouldn't say that I've, I think I do. Well, my, my current therapist is also rlt. Oh, awesome, um. She doesn't host um work well and like, she's learned from her or taken you know some of his workshops and things like that. Are you comfortable sharing who your therapist is?
Speaker 2:uh, ann waller okay, I don't know her darn.
Speaker 1:I always love making the connections right, making the connection size right when I know she's full ladies, or maybe her schedule completely. That's right, that's right looking busy since COVID, I won't ever get off her books. I keep trying to get off them and then I keep coming back. That's what therapy is. That's right, that's part part of it.
Speaker 2:We're never kind of finished the work. We go in cycles and take pauses and coast for time, and then something comes up and it gives us a chance to work on something.
Speaker 1:I know it's so true. So let's talk a little bit more about RLT, or relational life therapy, and from your lens obviously we got to talk about it a lot with Risa. What would you say, like what RLT does that other therapies can't?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. Well, what RLT does that I really like which is again what attracted me to it is that it's not just kind of letting couples flounder on their own around like how do they feel about something, how do you feel about that? It's really direct and it's getting at the part of you. One of the most common complaints that couples have is we can't communicate. We don't know how to communicate, and people are pretty smart. They can read. We don't know how to communicate and people are pretty smart, like they can read books. They know how to communicate. They know how to communicate when they're not activated.
Speaker 2:It's when I'm activated, I don't give a shit about communicating. When I'm activated, I go into self-protection. That's true for all of us. That's kind of what RLT posits. True for all of us. That's kind of what RLT posits. And so when you go into self-protection which we call adaptive child is, your only job is to protect yourself. Your only job is to make sure that you're safe. And it's a very short-term way of thinking In relationship. When we are in the part of us that is grounded, that's not activated, we're able to see, think more long-term and we're thinking more about protecting the relationship rather than just protecting myself. So like, for example, one of the examples that I give my clients and don't worry, this hasn't actually happened.
Speaker 2:But we talk about RLT as a three-part person system. So there's wounded child, adaptive child, wise adult. Wounded child is a very young, vulnerable part. Something has happened that has wounded this child, impacted by their environment, and the adaptation comes and says let me protect you from that. Here's what I'm going to do to maximize attachment to your caregivers, to maximize the world accepting you, to maximize protecting your wound.
Speaker 2:And then there's wise adult, which is our, the current version of ourselves. So my adaptive child I call her the motherfucker in charge, and the example I use is I'm in the Target parking lot and I like have my blinker on and there's this like really good parking spot right up at the front and I'm all ready to get in it and then another car whoosh, goes and peels into the parking spot and so my wound doesn't know. I'm in the Target parking lot. My wound is just like oh my gosh, you're not going to get what you need. And so my adaptation then says oh, don't worry, I'll take care of this, let me get out the crowbar, and I'm going to go get that parking spot for you.
Speaker 1:Oh dang this is good, and my wise adult goes whoa spot for you. Oh dang, this is good.
Speaker 2:And my wise adult goes whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you. You are trying to get me this thing that you think I need. Right, it's short-term thinking. It's going to get me the parking spot. The long-term problem is that I'm going to be in the newspaper like local therapist loses it in the Target parking lot. The problem is long-term I'm going to go to jail because I've lost it in the parking lot. My adaptive child is thinking I got to protect you, I got to get you this thing. My wise adult can know you're not in danger right now. This is a parking spot. There's a Harris Teeter across the street. There are a bunch of other parking spots behind you. You could leave and come back to Target. Like this is not, the stakes are not high In that moment. When that happens, during the whoosh of when that happens, my body has not registered that this is not a high right. So, um, I kind of totally lost the question that you were asking. How is it different?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I love this story so much.
Speaker 2:No what we're doing is we're addressing the part of us that wants to get the like for me, the part of me that wants to get the crowbar out and like fight for whatever it is that I'm afraid that I'm not going to get. That part doesn't care about communicating with my husband. That part doesn't care about my relationship with my husband. That part is just like I will make this happen for you. And so addressing that part, getting awareness of it, noticing what I'm doing, that is the problem. That is some of the destructive part, of the destructive dynamic or destructive pattern, and then, um, getting allergic to it, where I can now no longer do the thing that I used to be able to do, because I'm now I know, and so now it's like it's like when you spit in the soup you can't ever eat it the same way again. So it's kind of like you, you wake up a little bit to the part of you that shows up and and it's not always with violence, not always no no yeah, for some people.
Speaker 2:it might be like lots of fawning, it might be to make something better it might be.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't say what it is that I want, because I just want to manage how you partner are behaving or feeling, so.
Speaker 2:So what I like about it is it addresses kind of underneath the pattern and it really addresses it, rather than saying kind of like, oh, you know, how did it feel when such and such? It's like wow, okay, you just showed up. Are you aware of how you just showed up? Like let's talk about that, what's that? Like In a loving way and in a way that says, hey, me too, like I'm a fellow traveler on this, on this path. This is not, and so are most human beings that I'm aware of, so this is not like a shame thing. This is what did you learn? What did you learn from your environment as a way to show up that would keep you safe, and how can you update your system when you are in relationship with your partner not to respond in that same way? Now those things will come up also in our familial relationships, like in any kind of really close, intimate relationships. That stuff is more likely to be activated.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I just went off on a tangent that was like too, therapy speak.
Speaker 1:No, I understand it, I understand it. I'm trained but not trained, and I love to nerd out with all of this stuff too.
Speaker 2:Yes me too.
Speaker 1:One of the other questions I had for you too is, in going back to the workshop, I mean Risa, and I said, like we kind of talked through I's, if you're considering this workshop, listen to the Risa one first, just because we kind of really lay out sort of like what to expect. You know, we do a little bit of like FAQ. If you're feeling nervous, what about me versus my partner, like all these things?
Speaker 1:So listen up In talking about this one, you know. Can you describe what it feels like to be in the room during a workshop and maybe share one of the most surprising reactions you've ever seen from one of the participants?
Speaker 2:You don't have to give their story, but has happened consistently is that there are couples or partners where one person clearly wanted to come to the workshop and the other person was only ever happy once right, okay, yeah, and it has happened multiple times where I call it the dragger and the draggy, where the draggy is like proselytizing about the boot camp.
Speaker 2:afterwards they're like I can't believe I said no to this. I can't believe it took me so long to say yes to this. I really got something out of it. I really believe in this information. It wasn't nearly as scary as I thought it was going to be. It wasn't nearly as I think a lot of people are afraid about the group aspect of it.
Speaker 1:That was one thing that Reese and I talked through, but can you speak a little bit more to that, because you know it's not like again. I do remember taking a class on group therapy and and practicing and setting it and and because, again, different modality yeah, that's group therapy, this is a workshop, this is a workshop Right.
Speaker 2:So it's. It's much more psychoeducation and then working the psychoeducation through your own system and through your relationship system like work through your own body, through your own thought process, through your own feelings, and people can share as they like and not share as they don't like. It's not airing dirty laundry of your relationship. It's not coming in to complain about your partner. In fact, we kind of set the stage for that not being something that happens and it's more about kind of noticing how do I show up and what are some lenses and some ways that can help me understand and see how I show up and what, maybe what doesn't work, what happens in our relationship. A lot of times people come in and they're like I'm not even sure why. This isn't why we're struggling in this way. The cool thing about it is that people have come in at many different stages of their relationship also. So people come in who are just dating for a few weeks and people have come in who've been married for like 40 years. And people come in what?
Speaker 1:The few weeks.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's awesome. I know me too. Like an ounce of what is it? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Like I think that is such a fantastic idea to come in and really fortify, you know, and and there are people who have come into, who have just been through breakups and say I want to understand what happened, I want to understand what was my piece in this, I want to do something different, I want to show up differently, I want to be able to recognize things differently, I want to have some tools, so so the day is set up so that the first day is really psychoeducation around how do you show up and then the second day is really skills concrete skills for communicating, for repairing when there are ruptures. Um, and one of the most exciting and fun things is is the people who didn't expect much out of it and come out of it really having gotten a lot from it?
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I mean, yeah, I feel like those bubbles are just the best. I mean, yeah, I feel like the dynamic of the dragger and the draggy is you? Know is common. Obviously that's kind of just par for the course. But where's my other? I'll just add to that.
Speaker 2:I think people surprise themselves. Yeah, you know some of the feedback that we've gotten, like we have a couple. You know quotes and stuff that we've taken out from the feedback and it's like I connected to my wife deeper than I've ever connected with her before. Yeah, like any person who cares about their partner should come do this. Or these are skills for like any human being should have these skills for relationships. Like really beautiful, um beautiful moments of people who I don't think are used to connecting with themselves or each other in in this way and it's a. It's a like a really special opportunity to get to spend a weekend with your partner or on yourself to work on this stuff. Like what a cool thing to be able to do, because there's nothing more important and I'm a couple of therapists, but there's nothing more important than the relationships in your life.
Speaker 2:I mean it literally predicts your longevity and so what an important thing to spend the time and effort on and what a gift to be able to do that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know, and I mean one thing like I mean. Obviously Terry real says this recent I talked about too is like like we are born and wired for connection. In connection, you mentioned the part about longevity. Well, that's it. You know what I mean. We are human beings, we're supposed to be together you know what? I mean and um, like, I feel like, and through this modality, through this lens, I've applied a lot of this to friendships too, as I've got this same work that I've primarily done with myself, um, uh, because the other person just wasn't fixable.
Speaker 1:No, you know, I, however, yeah, um and um, so, yeah, so I, I think that's really um a great point, and recently I made this point, and I want to make this here again too that, regardless you know, um, whether you are in a relationship or not, um, you can like, yes, you can still come as an individual, um, but I still wouldn't. You know, you can still, sorry. Yes, you can come as a couple. I said that backwards yes, you can absolutely come as a couple, of course, and I think that's probably most encouraged. I think that's how you can come as a couple. I said that backwards.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can absolutely come as a couple, of course, and I think that's probably most encouraged. I think that's how you can get the max benefit. But you can still come as an individual and don't be afraid to come as an individual, even if you, even if you're feeling like, oh, if I, I'm the dragger, my draggy just absolutely won't come, can't come, whatever you won. Obviously, you can still get something out of this, but you can still learning that information can still plant the seeds, not only for yourself, because you know, obviously the goal is to keep working on yourself too. But if you have that knowledge and information it can obviously help the relationship, no matter what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, if we get really lofty about it, it's you know, it can help your whole sphere.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is about, like, how do I interact with people? How do I interact with people in a way that's accountable, that is connected and protected? How do I stop? Um, you know, terry Real has a quote that I love that says family dysfunction rolls. This is something like it rolls on from generation to generation like a fire in the woods until somebody turns and faces the flames. Yeah, and that is so beautiful to me and that can definitely be done as an individual in or out of a relationship, because it's really about when I am activated, how can I shift? How can I shift? And the only person we can change is ourselves, and when we change ourselves, it's not uncommon that people and things change around us.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, and I mean even speaking for myself too, like, and when, even when you do make those changes for yourself, because you know, if they start here, you know the ripples. Again, there's no timeline on the ripples. It can take, you know, years, it can take minutes, you know there's really no saying, but it's still a ripple and you've got to believe in that and just just that paradigm shift is huge. I know it's been very huge for me, um, even though, again, the work is never done and the pace is its own pace. You know what I mean. But that's okay. Um, no, but one of my last kind of questions for you too is, um, you know, kind of poking at the hard truth the couples don't want to hear.
Speaker 2:What's one uncomfortable truth about relationships that people resist but absolutely need to face if they want real change you are part of the problem no, I'm not partner it's not just your partner, that they there, that you um, only you can change you and that's worth it, regardless of whether your partner changes. Who do you want to be in this world? How do you want to move through this world? How do you want to um be in your community, with your family, with your, your friends, with your in your? You know, if you're employed, in your place of employment, if you have children, what do you want to model? You have power. We each have power and can move ourselves, and that's important work.
Speaker 2:My belief is that's really important work. Probably to me, beyond kind of our food, shelter, et cetera is some of the most important and most meaningful work of our lives. And so if we can be brave enough to look at the parts of us, when we're activated, that go into self-protection in ways that are destructive and I use the word destructive and I think a lot of people think of overt, like you know, me and my crowbar but covert also, like showing up and not, you know, sending the representative of yourself to try to please everyone that's destructive also, being kind of walled off and judgmental, or walled off and nothing's going to work, those are destructive too. Destruction doesn't destructive patterns aren't necessarily as but not always overt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at that.
Speaker 2:So so yeah, that's that's. Those things block our connection and gosh, it's worth. Connection is so beautiful, there's such possibility and healing, and but without accountability there is no real change.
Speaker 1:I love that and when you're talking to, when you're talking just about being a part of the problem and recognizing that, you know, I think there's so many blame shame cycles that system relationships, and it's easy to get stuck on that, no matter which end of it you fall on, you know, but that is also is equally a contributor to that you know like it's always easy to point the figure, you know, but there is, you know, an effective shelter in in the finger.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean and like, just like you said, that is kind of the adaptiveness or what we might also call. Uh, what's the word escaping me? Um, again told you my brain is fried today. I was gonna say trigger for kind of the um wounded child part. And then, well, I guess you know maladaptive behavior, you know you're um the way that we start coping. That's kind of the other word. A lot of people like we'll say how we ineffectively cope.
Speaker 1:But I think a lot of and I, you know, I say a lot of people, I'm including myself in this that you know we sometimes wear those coping mechanisms, mechanisms like a badge of honor, like we put those up like look what I've been able to do, you know I power through and da, da, da, da, da. And again, risa said it really well Like you know, our culture supports rugged individualism, not, you know, healed connection, right. So we wear those things as, like you know, hey, look what I've done, right, like at all the and that's not necessarily by our fault, right, because they were survival mechanisms of how we got through. But the reality is we can change those patterns, we can be a part of that change to help heal not only ourselves, not only our marriages, but our friendships.
Speaker 1:But I mean, there are even times, too, when I've been talking to my therapist and again I'm new and starting my own business and in this whole field and things like that, like this is new to me, this is not what I studied, and things like that. And these same things apply, you know, when I'm working with her and I told her and I and I said to her one time I was like and I'm forgetting the example, but I'm like I am so glad that I've done the work, that I can have stronger boundaries and a stronger mindset while I approach this, because I would not be able to stand on two feet and be able to be a business owner, walk into these rooms and network and talk about all these things if I didn't have the skill set you know. So that's the point I'm trying to make too, like, obviously, we are talking most specifically to a lot of relationships marriages, couple relationships but these skills cover everything, like you said, your whole biosphere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that I love that you said that, because there's a one of the things that we focus on is self-esteem and boundaries, and certainly that can be applied to the way up in the world in all different situations.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, my gosh. Well, I am so excited to meet you in person and I fear that I'm going to like you probably too much.
Speaker 2:Um, exactly, exactly, I was like, I feel like this energy is going to be is going to be too good almost.
Speaker 1:But I'm so excited for this workshop, like I said, about a month countdown and I think through the end of August, august 31, right, there's still the deal for buying your tickets. So be sure to take advantage of that ASAP. These spots will fill up your spring one filled up, I feel like they pretty much always fill up. So, and you want to get this, your tickets now, while that you can kind of get that little like price snag. That's kind of the best way to do it. And the other thing to encourage you too is like make a weekend of it. You know, um, and the other thing to encourage you too, is like make a weekend of it. You know, I know I'll be down there all weekend, um and uh, and, like I said, there's no football game, there's no naval academy stuff, so it's, you know, right down, the beautiful you can experience the city without, with no stress. You'll literally have no stressors.
Speaker 2:Annapolis is so fun. It's so. Annapolis is so fun, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't wait. I'm so glad that I got to pick your brain today and I'm excited to see you September 20th. Thanks, claire, we're so excited to see you. Thank you, thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mom Talk, maryland. If you loved it, leave a review, share it with a friend or tag me at thecolumbiamom on Instagram. I'd love to hear what you think and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep showing up, keep supporting local and keep being the incredible mom, woman, human that you are.